I’m genuinely interested in people thoughts about the Fediverse because here in the UK it has massively stalled in 2025, like a lot of things. I am seeing way less posts from UK people and way less interaction and general use in fact. Most seem to have stopped social media use to be fair, and I know a lot of that is to do with my age (old fart here, 56 laps round sun and counting) but the numbers game look poor from my point of view. Do we think the Fediverse has a future now after useage appears to be going downwards? Is it a UK thing? (well I know the UK is weird but hey)
Bluesky blew itself up cos they failed to be sufficiently decentralised and became an echo chamber. Activpub systems are less echo chambery but still have a very strong left lean that is significantly effecting out ability to grow especially among the centre who represents the majority. We need more right wing opinions and allow said right wing opinions if we want the majority of people to adopt it.
The fundamental failure of the fediverse that is limiting us is that accounts are not transportable. We need some decentralised ledger of accounts that can be cryptographically verified with a zero trust system. U just set up a oidc server to do that auth and that plugs into every single fediverse application everywhere.
God, shut up. There’s the “communist” dumbass instances which is just far right levels of stupid, and then literally the entire rest of this platform is just normal centrist europe views. “Leftist” is a term Americans use to describe giving immigrants healthcare and thinking homeless people should be given homes.
I was going to say. The fediverse isn’t an echo chamber. It’s a series of echo chambers, some of which even talk to eachother. :P
And if we have fewer people over here because the fascists don’t like us, well, cry me a fucking river.
Go say something against trans and see how the fediverse reacts most instances will hand out an instant instance ban. That’s a pretty mainstream right wing belief but its almost completely censored on the fediverse.
Normal centrist European views huh? I don’t think so their are a lot of right ringers Europe who wouldn’t be allowed to say what they want here. Perhaps that’s what some Americans mean when they say leftist but that’s not what most people mean pretty shit straw man imo.
Hate speech has no place here, no matter how comfortable these creeps feel around their fascist politicians and policemen at home.
Hating Jews was “pretty mainstream” in the NSDAP.
Hate speech is hate speech no matter how many bootlicking pieces of shit might agree, and this is not a platform that’s friendly to the miserable fuckers who have nothing better to do with their lives than to spread hate and intolerance. They have Twitter and Truth social to spread their shit.
And here lies my point. A vast majority of people don’t think its hate speech. And a vast majority of people believe free speech supersedes hate speech.
Please define hate speech.
I’ve seen many people defending violence against Jews in the name of Palestine right here on lemmy so I’d say hating Jews is pretty mainstream in the fediverse right now.
I believe the right to free speech grants you the right to express hatred as long as ur not calling for violence u should have the right to say whatever the fuck you want.
That’s a pretty mainstream belief for a lot a people who have been completely ostracised and discriminated against by the fediverse as a whole.
Muntedcrocodile: “I believe in the right to spread hatred as long as it’s not calling for violence.”
Lemmy: “Um, okay. Let’s give that a try. We hate hateful right wing views, and call people with those views total assholes.”
muntedcrocodile: “Wait, not like that! You should tolerate us so there’s a diversity of views!”
Ironic.
Nice straw man.
U see I also believe in equality (of opportunity) if you have the right to spread hate against right wing views then said right wingers should have said right to spread hate against your views.
I’m tolerant of your hate speech and combat it with ration argument. Your not tolerant of my speech and combat it with deletions, bans, and personal attacks. We are not the same.
Actually, a vast majority of people don’t support being a shitbag to other people. You’re confusing popular sentiment with the whims of the conservative elite. If you don’t just hide in right wing echo chambers all the time you might be surprised to find out how unpopular your terrible views are.
I frequent many forums both digital and physical under a multitude of identities and the only ones who despise free speech are the extreme left. Pretty much everyone likes it. Lemmy is the most echo chambery of all the places I visit.
If your views are so popular how did trump win the election? Why have almost all right wing parties across Europe gotten a larger percentage of the vote? Why did almost every state in the us shift more right in the last election? These are the facts. You are objectively wrong
Those are not facts. You are wrong. Nice try though.
Prove me wrong.
The definition of UN should be simple enough:
A related reading would be the paradox of tolerance, which goes far in explaining why we do not want this shit anywhere near our communities.
As for anti-Semitism, I’ve seen some of it in response to Israel’s ongoing genocide, and of course the current context makes both anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim sentiments a very real problem. However, I think people on here mostly seem to be able to distinguish Israel and Judaism, and when they don’t it seems moderators are generally doing a better job than on most platforms in my experience. But I doubt you’re here in good faith, so I don’t see much point in discussing something like this with you.
If you feel discriminated against because people don’t want you around, feel free to vote with your feet.
First I always discuss in good faith its a far more rewarding and enjoyable way to engage with the shared human experience. Second the condescending attitude isn’t particularly pleasant I’m not speaking with you in such a way I ask you have the same respect for me.
Sure that’s a fair definition.
I would argue the paradox of tolerance is widely misunderstood the full quote in which it is based is as follows:
"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.
In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise." - Karl Popper (The Open Society and Its Enemies 1945)
I think most people ignore the second half of it as its convenient for them to do so.
Ahh yes vote with my feet and leave the fediverse hence why op is asking why the fediverse has stagnated and doesn’t seem to be growing. You have expertly just proven exactly the original point I was trying to make.
A lot of right-wing beliefs have become so extreme that I am frankly happy to not be around them, regardless of how important I feel it is to avoid echo chambers (very). Its one thing to want to be able to have conversations with people you disagree with even though it’s challenging, it’s another thing to constantly have to contend with people who would like to debate whether you’re a human and deserve basic human dignity because you’re a minority.
But I would appreciate if we could at least manage not to attack other left wing folks over not being left wing enough, or over what methods are a productive way to solve the problems we’re facing.
It’s kind of just a microcosm of the infighting and purity testing of the left more broadly (at least in America, I have no idea how things are with the culture of leftwing communities or voices in Europe or the rest of the world), but it still sucks and I’d like to hope we can find a way to do better.
Tbh I’m not even sure what the right and left wing means or believes anymore.
Both terms have been so utterly corrupted and coopted that they have become meaningless to the point of simply being a term used to other one group by the other.
Well that’s the problem everyone thinks they are exactly the minimum amount of left and that anyone right of them is a facist. If someone is continuously called a fascist Nazi eventually they will listen.
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it” - Joseph Goebbels
Australia wasn’t so much on the extreme of Americans but we are getting there. Interestingly both the right wing and the extreme left got fucked in our most recent election. Mind u I’m not happy with the current federal government they are introducing a pre capital gains tax on everyone’s savings.
I can appreciate how twisted and emotionally charged the labels have become. As a queer(-ish, it’s complicated) person in the US, it is not uncommon for right wing spaces on reddit to offhandedly describe me and all the people I care about as groomers. Thats not a good faith discussion of whether the way that I want to see problems solved is productive, it’s just dehumanizing people because they’re minorities.
I don’t want to be around that. I think it is extremely important to have conversations with people you don’t agree with, and I still have very little emotional capacity to engage with people that far away from me in terms of what’s considered an acceptable way to engage with other humans.
I don’t wish them death and dismemberment or for them to face violent retribution (and before people take issue with that, that would radicalize people and harm every single cause I care about, making every problem I’m facing worse. Even just purely pragmatically that’s a horrible way to solve our problems like 99% of the time), but I don’t wish to share space with them, I don’t have that in me.
The left does absolutely have an issue with calling anyone we dont like a Nazi, which is a painful problem to confront due to the fact that our government is descending into outright fascism, and it is now infinitely harder to have a conversation about the fact that this is what fascism looks like now that the word has been so diluted as to be almost meaningless. It essentially just conveys “I really really really don’t like that person” at this point, which is a big difference from “this person is framing minorities as responsible for all that ails society to gain power while stripping us of our freedoms and amassing personal power and currying favor with billionaires by selling them our institutions at all or our expense”
I’m curious, how did both the left and right get fucked in the recent election? I’m pretty much entirely unfamiliar with Australian politics save for a couple friendly jordies videos
The issue is the worst of both sides are the ones defining each other. I won’t deny that I disagree with some of the things being pushed as part of education for young children. But I wouldn’t say that that’s grooming let alone define an entire group of people by that. Its defiantly not good faith.
I think the beautiful part of the internet is if u don’t want to be around a particular person u can block them and they simply disappear. They have a right to speech but nobody has the right to force you to listen.
I don’t think engaging with people emotionally is the correct way to engage especially over a text medium. I think the only real productive discussion that can be had without devolving into a screaming and name calling is rational and logical. I find that emotional arguments and weaponised empathy get deployed on mass instead of rational discussion.
I’m not saying that you should be forced to share a space with such people I simply think that others should not be restricted from having such spaces and engaging freely with people in those spaces.
This is what I’m saying people have been called fascist so long they have become the fascists. Its both sides stripping us of our freedoms and making our lives shit. Its a choice between get fucked or get fucked lite. We are all to distracted fighting a bullshit culture war to realise its just a distraction from the real issues. Funny how the whole culture war thing kicked off just after occupy wall street.
In Australia we have preferential voting so we don’t have a 2 party system. We have the liberals who are centre right, we have labor who are centre left, we have the greens who are communists and we have the nationals who are fascists. The nationals never get any seats, liberal and labor trade places as the government every couple years and the greens get a couple seats. This time the greens lost almost all their seats same as the liberals.
I’ve never felt this was as important as people say, at least here in the Threadiverse I don’t see it being important. Can you explain how this would help Lemmy/PieFed?
Because it would solve the whole issue of people deciding what instance to sign up to. It would make the fediverse better than the mainstream “the one account to rule them all”.
But then who is your admin team? People don’t want to deal with spam and trolls.
Instances still exist its just that u can log into literally any of them with 1 account. I get instance banned from an instance ur still banned from that instance.
So people still have to choose an instance to login to? This is just to save you from creating an account which is like 25 keystrokes and 4 clicks?
I also don’t really want to make things easier for people who get banned often, sounds like it would be easier for trolls to bounce between hundreds of instances with fewer accounts.
If u get banned from somewhere from one instance ur also banned from other instances. Its basically just creating a meta id for user ids.
Bluesky blew itself up? What happened to bluesky?
There usage numbers are dropping alarmingly. And all the famous people on it went back to twitter.
Wow… I wouldn’t have expected that. I much prefer the fediverse but that’s still a real shame
OIDC gives you federated login, but no portable identity…
Oidc is the protocol by which auth can happen its the evolution of oauth. U need to build some kind of decentralised ledger then u set up a server that checks that ledger against the user provided auth then u simply make this server have an oidc endpoint allowing it to be plug and play with existing fediverse services.
I say oidc cos almost all fediverse software is already compatible with it.
My point is: if you have a ledger that the user controls and can use to redirect to different auth endpoints, then you don’t need oauth. You just use the record in the ledger as the authentication mechanism directly.
Yeah exactly. But instead of having to implement that auth process in every different fediverse service in however many different languages u simply write it once with an oidc endpoint and all fediverse services can run it as a container in their stack. It makes implementing such auth system a simple config change and updating a docker compose to add a new service.
It looks like we are talking past one-another.
What I am trying to say is that “getting the user to complete a login” is not the novel part that is missing. What we are missing is a way for the user to have control over their actor ID, so that they use the same id regardless of what server that id is delegated to.
So, unless I am misunderstanding you, what you are proposing is an OIDC provider which could be used to authenticate on any other service. That’s good, but it doesn’t solve the problem that if we had an unified OIDC provider without a DID, all of the actor ids would end up dependent on the OIDC provider.
Ahh I see what ur saying now. Yeah the actor id is hard as it needs to be an actual dereferenceable uri as actors need an inbox and outbox of activities.
I don’t think u can maintain cross instance actor ids. The only issue I see with having multiple actor ids for the same user is that they will have their content and profile split across multiple instances.
I guess u could have a meta id that dereferences to all ur actor ids?
Yes, that would be ATProto’s did:plc system.
Ahh I see I’ve never looked into how atproto works might need to look into it and sees if some of its systems can be adapted for Activpub. Thx for the info