• Yliaster@lemmy.worldBanned from community
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    11 days ago

    Not an American or a liberal, and yes, china is authoritarian. Is america better? No. The credit score system in the US is also bad.

      • Cyrus Draegur@lemmy.zip
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        11 days ago

        You ain’t wrong about the social credit thing! There was only one municipality that tried to implement it in any way that even vaguely resembles how mainstream media hysterics portray, and that city’s administration was punished for it on the national stage.

        The only thing the “social credit” system was meant to do is make major public figures accountable for corruption. It was never aimed at REGULAR people!

        But yeah nah fuck anyone and anything that opposed democracy especially the two faced single political party of the United States of America. If they actually gave a shit about democracy for real instead of just consuming lives to pay for their pedophilia addictions, we’d have ranked choice voting by now.

        • QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml
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          11 days ago

          Unfortunately I don’t think ranked choice voting will save you. You need to clear the board so to speak and get some options that actually represent people over corporate interests.

          • ILoveUnions@lemmy.world
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            11 days ago

            You do realize that ranked choice voting is one of the simplest and least violent ways to push forward progressive candidates right? Because it makes people comfortable with voting options that with first past the post would be throw away votes

            • QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml
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              11 days ago

              That makes sense, and then you look at Europe and realise the issues at hand are systemic, caused by material conditions and bourgeois democratic electoralism is never going to fix those issues.

              Much of Europe already uses ranked choice or proportional voting, yet remains austerity-ridden and sliding toward the far right because it is still under the dictatorship of capital. The voting mechanism is secondary to the concrete material conditions: capital’s imperative to accumulate, the commodification of labor, and the state’s role as an instrument of class rule. Until that dictatorship is overthrown, electoral reform is rearranging deck chairs on a sinking ship.

              The core contradictions at hand are:

              Socialized production versus private appropriation:workers collectively create value, but capitalists expropriate the surplus

              The tendency of the rate of profit to fall: as organic composition of capital rises, profitability declines, forcing capital to seek new fixes

              Overaccumulation and underconsumption: capital produces more than can be profitably sold, leading to crisis, layoffs, and austerity

              The contradiction between capital’s global mobility and labor’s relative immobility, which fuels a race to the bottom in wages and protections.

              As imperialism declines (neocolonial extraction becomes costlier, interimperialist rivalry intensifies, and the Global South resists outright plunder) capital can no longer rely on external superprofits to offset domestic falling rates of profit. The response is internal repression: austerity to slash social wages, union-busting to weaken labor power, surveillance to preempt dissent, and the normalization of authoritarian governance. This is capital’s logical reaction to crisis.

              This dynamic mirrors Weimar Germany: economic crisis, delegitimized liberal parties, and a bourgeoisie that ultimately backed fascism to crush the organized working class and restore “order” for capital. Today’s far-right surge is the same phenomenon: capital’s emergency management when consent can no longer be manufactured through bourgeois democracy alone.

              Voting under these conditions is not a path to liberation; it is a ritual that legitimizes the managers of decline. For voting to matter, you must overthrow the dictatorship of capital and reach the synthesis of these contradictions: a revolutionary transformation that socializes production, abolishes exploitation, and builds a state that serves human need, not profit. Only then does political power and thereby voting become meaningful.

              • ILoveUnions@lemmy.world
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                9 days ago

                Ranked choice and proportional voting are 2 very different concepts. You are falsely pretending they’re similar when they’re wildly different concepts. Only Ireland presently uses it from the eu, because they as well have an establishment, and ranked choice voting is anti establishment at its core.

                Why are you trying to pretend they’re the same concept?

                How do you expect to have a revolution if 90% of people don’t agree with your viewpoint? And I say that as a socialist. Pushing forward the agena over the course of decades is more likely to be successful than a single revolution, in my opinion.

                • QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml
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                  9 days ago

                  Yes, they are different, but the point at the core of my argument is that it’s irrelevant as they serve the same purpose at their core.

                  Whether it’s s RCV or MMP, the outcome remains austerity, imperialist foreign policy, and rising far-right influence because the state remains an instrument of capital. Ballot mechanics don’t override class power. RCV isn’t “anti-establishment at its core”; it’s a procedural tweak that can just as easily stabilize bourgeois legitimacy.

                  How do you expect to have a revolution if 90% of people don’t agree with your viewpoint?

                  In my country the revolution has already happened. We now conduct class struggle through party debate and socialist democracy, not bourgeois elections.

                  Also revolutionary consciousness isn’t a precondition you wait for, it is forged through struggle. The 90% figure is wrong for a start, even in the US communist sympathys are quickly growing, you also assumes static opinions under static conditions, but material crises radicalize people faster than decades of electoral gradualism. Reformism doesn’t build toward socialism, it manages capitalism more palatably and demobilizes movements by channeling energy into cycles of hope and disappointment.

                  Pushing forward the agenda over the course of decades is more likely to be successful than a single revolution, in my opinion.

                  History suggests otherwise. Social democracy produced the welfare state only under the unique pressure of postwar reconstruction and Soviet competition, then dismantled it once those pressures faded (and even that was built off massive exploitation and imperialism in the periphery). Capital concedes reforms only when forced and retracts them the moment profitability demands it. Waiting for electoral consensus while the climate burns, fascism rises, and imperialism massacres isn’t a strategy. Bourgeois democracy won’t let you vote through its own abolition. The task for those still under bourgeois democracy is to build dual power: organs of working-class authority that can confront and replace the dictatorship of capital. That’s how you can make voting matter.

                  • ILoveUnions@lemmy.world
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                    8 days ago

                    You say “socialist democracy” as distinct from bourgeois elections but socialism describes an economic ideology, not a system of voting. It’s not a meaningful differentiator to show how your system is different. That alone makes me get the feeling you’re kinda just tossing word salads here. But, I would like you to explain what you mean before I dismiss it as such— perhaps it has a meaning I’m unfamiliar with.

                    precondition you wait for, it is forged through struggle. The 90% figure is wrong for a start, even in the US communist sympathys are quickly growing

                    Rapidly growing, part of why I’m optimistic in a peaceful solution. But I would say that’s much more for socialism than communism.

                    Bourgeois democracy won’t let you vote through its own abolition.

                    The beautiful part of democracy, even flawed ones, is that it can’t stop you once you gather enough support, it will bend to your will

            • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
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              11 days ago

              Haha, you think the epstein class will allow you to vote away their fascism

              • ILoveUnions@lemmy.world
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                9 days ago

                It’s an important reform no matter what, even if we have to resort to other methods to take out the class first.

            • MerryJaneDoe@lemmy.world
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              11 days ago

              Alas, I fear the US might be too far gone for ranked choice to have an effect.

              The problem is quality of candidates. Since Citizen’s United opened the door for unlimited corporate money in elections, literally 90% of candidates are on someone’s payroll. “Grassroots” is a thing of the past. Mass media and name recognition are everything.

              • ILoveUnions@lemmy.world
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                9 days ago

                It’s quite possible it’s too late for the usa, but I still do want other democracies to push for it. Only 4 odd countries have it worldwide.

                Worth saying, while grassroots is less common, it is not gone. Kat in il-9 is somewhat a good example of this though she failed community engagement and came from out of town so she’s unlikely to win. Though it is arguable how grassroots she is. Of course the top priority is revoking citizens united.

                It’s one of the simplest ways of helping push countries to the left, because it allows you to have people vote for the leftist politicians without worrying about boosting a right wing politician or party, as first past the post forces, and also not forcing people to vote for parties, which lock out leftist candidates from being able to gain traction as easily such as in proportional voting systems.

        • Kurroth@aussie.zone
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          11 days ago

          As good as preferential/ranked voting is. Compulsory voting would have a much larger positive impact on US’ democracy

          Ideally both

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            11 days ago

            Neither can fix the systemic problems caused by capitalism though, democracy in capitalism is democracy for capitalists.

          • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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            11 days ago

            Many far right countries (australia, japan, south korea) use ranked choice voting… it doesn’t make a bit of difference. If capitalists control the political system, then they will stack candidates and fund the campaigns that support their interests, and the “democracy” there is nothing but political theatre.

            Outside of Marxists, even the ancient greeks knew that representative government is just another name for plutocracy, because only wealthy / landed family have the money and prestige to fund campaigns to get themselves elected. Liberals still haven’t learned this simple lesson.

            • Kurroth@aussie.zone
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              11 days ago

              In what world is Australia far right? Center right/neoliberal today maybe. But not far fight, especially compared to other countries

              Also I recommend compulsory voting.

          • Absurdly Stupid @lemmy.world
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            11 days ago

            How will compulsive voting improve anything? Now you’re dragging even more uninformed dopes to vote, a lot of them will vote for spite. Far more than you realize, I think

            Trump was 100% the vote-for-spite-burn-it-down candidate. That’s how they get you, the old switcheroo

            • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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              11 days ago

              Now you’re dragging even more uninformed dopes to vote, a lot of them will vote for spite.

              uninformed defines almost all american voters and the last election showed that 30 million people who voted in 2020, chose not to vote in 2024 instead of spite voting.

      • Yliaster@lemmy.worldBanned from community
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        11 days ago

        Re: authoritarianism— your opinion.

        Some of us aren’t in favour of oppressive regimes that aren’t transparent, surveil, and censor.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          11 days ago

          “Authoritarianism” is meaningless because all it means is “uses state power.” It doesn’t acknowledge which class controls the state and who it uses state power against. In China, the working classes control the state, and use state power against bad actors and capitalists more than anything else. China is oppressive to capitalists and liberating to workers.

          • furry toaster@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            11 days ago

            I haven’t much evidence for the claim: “In China, the working classses control the state”

            sure you will say that is my western bias from living with china bad propaganda, but you could actually provide something to me read on topic if possible

            • QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml
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              11 days ago

              You can debate whether the system works well, but it isn’t accurate to say there’s no evidence for the claim that the working classes play a central role in the Chinese state.

              China’s constitution explicitly defines the PRC as a socialist state “led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants,” with state power exercised through the National People’s Congress (NPC) system. The NPC is the highest organ of state power, with nearly 3,000 deputies drawn from provinces, the PLA, and different social sectors.

              The makeup of the NPC is not just party bureaucrats or business elites. In the 14th NPC there are hundreds of deputies from workers and farmers and large numbers of grassroots representatives, along with 442 ethnic minority deputies covering all 55 minority groups. Most deputies in China’s people’s congress system (about 95%) serve at the county and township level, which are directly elected and involve hundreds of millions of voters. Higher congresses are elected from these lower levels. This structure is what China calls “whole-process people’s democracy.” Sources explaining the system include CGTN’s Who runs the CPC and the State Council white paper China: Democracy That Works.

              You can also look at how the state treats capital. China has private capital, but it is clearly subordinated to state goals. When Jack Ma tried to push an aggressive fintech model through Ant Group that would massively expand lightly regulated consumer credit, regulators halted the IPO and forced restructuring under stricter oversight. That is a case of disciplining capital when it conflicts with social stability and the broader economy.

              Likewise, China has pursued policies like eliminating extreme poverty and building massive infrastructure networks (including projects that are not monetarily profitable) because they are treated as long-term public development goals. That kind of large-scale, socially oriented investment is difficult to sustain in systems where private capital dominates the state.

              So you can disagree with the Chinese model, but there is actually a large amount of Chinese material explaining how their system is supposed to function and why they claim it represents working-class political power.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              11 days ago

              Sure!

              The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Moreover, the economy in the PRC is socialist, with public ownership as the principle aspect of the economy. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.

              I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.

              The working classes in socialist countries are the ones dictating the state and its direction.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              5 days ago

              There is no genocide of Uyghurs. Uyghur genocide atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.

              In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.

              The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.

              I also recommend reading the UN report as well as (especially) China’s response to it, which eclipses it in size and detail.These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, Christian nationalist and professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does. Zenz’ work has been thoroughly discredited, yet is supported by western media for its utility in fearmongering. An example is lying about 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, to back up claims of “forced sterilization,” from this chart:

              Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this. Has there been mistreatment? Almost certainly to some degree, in a campaign as large as this. Is it genocide, be it cultural or outright? No, Uyghur culture is preserved and there are no mass killings.

          • Yliaster@lemmy.worldBanned from community
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            11 days ago

            I’m using the term to refer to suppression of people (which isn’t restricted to workers) in politics, media, etc.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              11 days ago

              Except by “the people” you seem to mean capitalists and fascists, not the broad majority of society that are uplifted and support the system.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              11 days ago

              China is a socialist country, public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state. Child labor is illegal in China, you may be thinking of the US.

        • QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml
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          11 days ago

          I am a Chinese minority living in China. You really don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to China. You very clearly have done 0 research beyond maybe reading RFA. You should be quiet until you have done some proper research.

          • davel@lemmy.ml
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            11 days ago

            You can’t possibly be a minority in China, what with all those intact organs.

          • Yliaster@lemmy.worldBanned from community
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            11 days ago

            Ad hominem, ad hominem, and mmm, ad hominem. Yeah, nothing to see here.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              11 days ago

              It isn’t an ad hominem fallacy to point out that doing little research on a topic and repeating easily disproven talking points isn’t a sound basis of argument.

              • Yliaster@lemmy.worldBanned from community
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                11 days ago

                And I have, and my responses were given little in return from them.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  11 days ago

                  You have not, considering everything you’ve said has been easily debunked, and when encountering hard numbers you reflect to dogmatism.

              • Yliaster@lemmy.worldBanned from community
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                11 days ago

                Well in the comment I said that you didn’t explain why I was wrong and simply resorted to making a string of ad hominems.

                So I’ll reiterate: ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem.