No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.
Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center
Yea but neoliberals are not left. The fuck do you think US democrats are classic liberals? Also classic liberals are still capitalist supporting fuckwits, so the distinction is irrelevant when discussing the modern left.
Right and there is more than classic liberalism. As I said. The majority of the others are left of center with classic liberalism being the outlier. Of which, Democrats still are right of classic liberalism
Being “left of center” is a comment about the Overton Window. People are trying to express to you about how outside of the extremely slanted window, liberals are all conservative, which is wholly and demonstrably correct.
When you’re the only one trying to use rose colored glasses, it behooves you to understand that most others will have a different perspective.
No, you are in .ml which is comparable to the trump supporters on the right. They have been radicalized and used various newspeak to create a unified voice that doesn’t conform with standard knowledge. This is why I have shown all kinds of sources that reinforce the idea that liberalism is center left while everyone from .ml is strictly applying Marxist theory as if it’s fact. Same experience arguing vaccines in r/conservative.
But I did and again this isn’t a source. You claim my sources are from liberal sources then go on to justify a reality they suits you. I’m sorry but this is similar reasoning I saw during COVID with people who denied vaccines and masking. I provided sources from everything from media, authorities like dictionaries and university’s and even historical quotes from political scientist. Marx fits this but is one of many lenses. The status quo is liberals are Left of center with some like classic liberals being more right of center.
Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul.
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:
It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, the right to private property, and equality before the law.[1][2] Liberals espouse various and often mutually conflicting views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.[3] Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.[4][5]: 11
How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s?
Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can’t.
You read books but do you read current news? Most of the world is still debating if they should be free of the government which is a binary that very much places liberalism on the left.
Why are you holding such a Eurocentric perspective in face of the fact that most are not having the anticapitalist vs capitalist discussion you seem to think they are having?
Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on.
Partially true but not universally true. This is like saying Jazz is African American music and classical is white music. You’re flattening these things into a very binary categorization. These are not binary categories like this. There’s so much nuance.
There’s so many more options and honestly I’m worried there’s a push you radicalize the left against even considering it after seeing many comments here.
An example of the top of my head is cooperatives. We don’t need public ownership of factories and production. We can restructure capitalism and how it works so it is more socialized. Worker owned business. Change the laws. Change how corporations are structured when they go public. Change investing laws since faceless stakeholders is a primary cause of a lot of issues we face.
The options are not capitalism or socialism. That seems like it’s a toxic pill that’s being pushed in the community. I really advise people to consider there’s potentially some radicalization occurring in certain corners. Remember they have a lot of power to push ideas and kill others. If we all know Cambridge and Koch brothers and heritage foundations are out there manipulating things online, maybe it’s important to be careful of dominant opinions in the niche corners as they grow.
I already explained elsewhere that it isn’t a binary, what’s important is which is the principle aspect, public or private ownership. There are elements of private property in socialism, and elements of public in capitalism.
Cooperatives do not eliminate the need for eventual full public ownership. Cooperatives are still based on competition and profit, not fulfilling needs. As cooperatives grow and develop, they will form monopolies, long past when coherent planning and public ownership becomes more efficient at fuflilling needs and growth.
Further, we as the workers cannot restructure capitalism. Capitalism is dominated by capital. In order for workers to have genuine power over the system, we need control of the state, large firms, and key industries, without ownership we cannot pivot to a cooperative society to begin with. Political economic systems are not thoughts in your head, recipes to be picked out, but real, material things, and as such what comes next will be what our current system is economically compelled towards. As centralization is a key side-effect of capitalism, common, collective ownership and planning is what will come next, after revolution sped up by capitalism’s own drive for disparity.
Ultimately, you have a very idealist, utopian view, and not a materialist, scientific view. That’s why you’re running into opposition so heavily.
Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism
Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism
Both are political left of center views. The political spectrum is not centered on socialism/capitalism.
As the other commenter mentioned, it seems everyone here has a very binary understanding of things. I’d be cautious as I’ve seen this same binary views with Trump fuck heads in 2016.
It isn’t a binary. Elements of private property exist in socialism, and elements of public property exist in capitalism. What matters most is which is the principle aspect of the economy. Liberalism stands for the current, capitalist system, but usually argues for minor modifications. That lands it squarely in the right-wing side.
That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.
This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly “freedom from the government” whatever that means(it’s not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it’s not)
What reference. The only one was a link to something I had already shared and it linked to the one area of liberalism that is considered center or center right. So let me know which link I’d love to know
This isn’t really relevant here. Social liberalism, democratic liberalism as categories are defined as left of center. A green group and another group labelling themselves socialist whatever isn’t changing what the definition is for sometime with different names
The “other group labelling themselves socialist” is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I’m curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center.
Quote: “Social liberalism is a political philosophy and variety of liberalism that endorses social justice, social services, a mixed economy, and the expansion of civil and political rights…”
Quote: “Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centre to centre-left, although there are deviations from these positions to both the political left or right. In modern political discourse, social liberalism is associated with progressivism, a left-liberalism contrasted to the right-leaning neoliberalism, and combines support for a mixed economy with cultural liberalism.”
Quote: “Modern liberals are generally willing to experiment with large‑scale social change to further their project of protecting and enhancing individual freedom.”
Source: Pew Research Center – Beyond Red vs. Blue: The Political Typology
Quote: “Holding liberal positions on nearly all issues, Establishment Liberals are some of the strongest supporters of the current president and the Democratic Party of any political typology group.”
I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.
Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.
I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.
I think it’s a very nuanced position but I still defend that it’s center left. Economically conservative I’m assuming means pro capitalist.
I support cooperatives and changing laws to fix how people are allowed to invest in the market. I don’t see why those things are not left.
Look at Mondragon Spain as one example of a proven successful example. Like historically successful. They changed how corporations are controlled after WWII and have proven successfully it works.
Cooperatives are neither left nor right. They do not fundamentally change property relations, in that they are based on private property and petite bourgeois class relations. Cooperatives can be part of early socialism, like Huawei in the PRC or the agricultural sectors in the USSR and PRC, or they can be a part of capitalist systems like Mondragon in Spain. At best, they could be considered quasi-socialist.
The reason why “fixing laws about investing” isn’t really “left” is because it doesn’t alter the base mode of production of society. It keeps capitalism intact, it just tweaks how you interact with it. This makes it less right wing than, say, Nazi Germany, but it doesn’t make it left, either.
They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.
I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆
Are you guys being serious right now? This is insane. Liberal values are left of center.
Liberalism has always been a right-wing philosophy
No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.
Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center
Yea but neoliberals are not left. The fuck do you think US democrats are classic liberals? Also classic liberals are still capitalist supporting fuckwits, so the distinction is irrelevant when discussing the modern left.
Right and there is more than classic liberalism. As I said. The majority of the others are left of center with classic liberalism being the outlier. Of which, Democrats still are right of classic liberalism
Being “left of center” is a comment about the Overton Window. People are trying to express to you about how outside of the extremely slanted window, liberals are all conservative, which is wholly and demonstrably correct.
When you’re the only one trying to use rose colored glasses, it behooves you to understand that most others will have a different perspective.
No, you are in .ml which is comparable to the trump supporters on the right. They have been radicalized and used various newspeak to create a unified voice that doesn’t conform with standard knowledge. This is why I have shown all kinds of sources that reinforce the idea that liberalism is center left while everyone from .ml is strictly applying Marxist theory as if it’s fact. Same experience arguing vaccines in r/conservative.
Deeply unserious behavior. Again, see my comment here.
But I did and again this isn’t a source. You claim my sources are from liberal sources then go on to justify a reality they suits you. I’m sorry but this is similar reasoning I saw during COVID with people who denied vaccines and masking. I provided sources from everything from media, authorities like dictionaries and university’s and even historical quotes from political scientist. Marx fits this but is one of many lenses. The status quo is liberals are Left of center with some like classic liberals being more right of center.
Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul.
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.
We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.
This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:
The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo’s Liberalism - A counter history, but you’d have to read many more foundational texts before that one.
It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Emerging together does not mean they are dependent on each other.
How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s?
Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can’t.
You read books but do you read current news? Most of the world is still debating if they should be free of the government which is a binary that very much places liberalism on the left.
Why are you holding such a Eurocentric perspective in face of the fact that most are not having the anticapitalist vs capitalist discussion you seem to think they are having?
😆
Do you even read bro
Yes I read. Like how I read that Wikipedia link and the other supporting links and references I’ve posted
Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you’re about 150 years late in defining liberalism as “the left”
Can you show me where private property is categorically right leaning and not left
Because that is the status quo. Leftism is about progressing onto the next mode of production, not stagnating or regressing, which is right-wing.
Capitalism is right-wing; socialism is left-wing. Private property is not about your toothbrush or house, it’s about private ownership of the means of production, which is what capitalism is founded on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
Partially true but not universally true. This is like saying Jazz is African American music and classical is white music. You’re flattening these things into a very binary categorization. These are not binary categories like this. There’s so much nuance.
There’s so many more options and honestly I’m worried there’s a push you radicalize the left against even considering it after seeing many comments here.
An example of the top of my head is cooperatives. We don’t need public ownership of factories and production. We can restructure capitalism and how it works so it is more socialized. Worker owned business. Change the laws. Change how corporations are structured when they go public. Change investing laws since faceless stakeholders is a primary cause of a lot of issues we face.
The options are not capitalism or socialism. That seems like it’s a toxic pill that’s being pushed in the community. I really advise people to consider there’s potentially some radicalization occurring in certain corners. Remember they have a lot of power to push ideas and kill others. If we all know Cambridge and Koch brothers and heritage foundations are out there manipulating things online, maybe it’s important to be careful of dominant opinions in the niche corners as they grow.
I already explained elsewhere that it isn’t a binary, what’s important is which is the principle aspect, public or private ownership. There are elements of private property in socialism, and elements of public in capitalism.
Cooperatives do not eliminate the need for eventual full public ownership. Cooperatives are still based on competition and profit, not fulfilling needs. As cooperatives grow and develop, they will form monopolies, long past when coherent planning and public ownership becomes more efficient at fuflilling needs and growth.
Further, we as the workers cannot restructure capitalism. Capitalism is dominated by capital. In order for workers to have genuine power over the system, we need control of the state, large firms, and key industries, without ownership we cannot pivot to a cooperative society to begin with. Political economic systems are not thoughts in your head, recipes to be picked out, but real, material things, and as such what comes next will be what our current system is economically compelled towards. As centralization is a key side-effect of capitalism, common, collective ownership and planning is what will come next, after revolution sped up by capitalism’s own drive for disparity.
Ultimately, you have a very idealist, utopian view, and not a materialist, scientific view. That’s why you’re running into opposition so heavily.
Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism
Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism
Both are political left of center views. The political spectrum is not centered on socialism/capitalism.
As the other commenter mentioned, it seems everyone here has a very binary understanding of things. I’d be cautious as I’ve seen this same binary views with Trump fuck heads in 2016.
It isn’t a binary. Elements of private property exist in socialism, and elements of public property exist in capitalism. What matters most is which is the principle aspect of the economy. Liberalism stands for the current, capitalist system, but usually argues for minor modifications. That lands it squarely in the right-wing side.
That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.
This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly “freedom from the government” whatever that means(it’s not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it’s not)
And you are presuming the discussions being had are about capitalism when they are still debating the role of the government in private ownership.
It’s a eurocentric position. It’s odd how many “leftists” fall into this.
oh my god we get it you learned the word ‘presume’ last week
citation needed
We just have a more nuanced understanding of politics than you do.
No, you are using a different binary and I would argue you are using the incorrect binary as most are not dividing over support for capitalism.
Yea but you’re all not authority on any of this. So it doesn’t matter. The rest of the world knows liberalism as left of center. Just facts
You are factually incorrect.
Definitely am not. I have plenty of supporting links. You all have … Comments
No. We’re right. You’ve been given references. Just because you obstinantly ignore those references does not make you correct or smart.
No I’m right I gave references, nobody has provided anything that has shown that liberalism is right
They gave references, you ninny. It doesn’t matter if you have references if everyone is bringing a lot more of rhem in to it, which they have.
Again, obstinance should not be confused with being correct. That’s just being in denial… You are in denial.
What reference. The only one was a link to something I had already shared and it linked to the one area of liberalism that is considered center or center right. So let me know which link I’d love to know
My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous.
And I told you, you posted a link to classic liberalism. It is a subset of liberalism it is not liberalism
we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center.
This isn’t really relevant here. Social liberalism, democratic liberalism as categories are defined as left of center. A green group and another group labelling themselves socialist whatever isn’t changing what the definition is for sometime with different names
The “other group labelling themselves socialist” is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I’m curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center.
deleted by creator
Source: Wikipedia – Social liberalism
Quote: “Social liberalism is a political philosophy and variety of liberalism that endorses social justice, social services, a mixed economy, and the expansion of civil and political rights…”
Quote: “Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centre to centre-left, although there are deviations from these positions to both the political left or right. In modern political discourse, social liberalism is associated with progressivism, a left-liberalism contrasted to the right-leaning neoliberalism, and combines support for a mixed economy with cultural liberalism.”
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
Source: Simple English Wikipedia – Social liberalism
Quote: “Social liberalism … endorses a regulated market economy and the expansion of civil and political rights.”
Quote: “Social liberal ideas and parties tend to be considered centrist or centre-left"
Link: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
Source: Britannica – Liberalism
Quote: “Modern liberals are generally willing to experiment with large‑scale social change to further their project of protecting and enhancing individual freedom.”
Link: https://www.britannica.com/question/How-does-modern-liberalism-differ-from-conservatism
Source: Cambridge Dictionary – Liberalism
Quote: “Liberal political ideas emphasize the need to make new laws as society changes and the need for government to provide social services.”
Link: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english-russian/liberal
Source: Pew Research Center – Beyond Red vs. Blue: The Political Typology
Quote: “Holding liberal positions on nearly all issues, Establishment Liberals are some of the strongest supporters of the current president and the Democratic Party of any political typology group.”
Link: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/beyond-red-vs-blue-the-political-typology-2/
I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.
Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.
I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.
I think it’s a very nuanced position but I still defend that it’s center left. Economically conservative I’m assuming means pro capitalist.
I support cooperatives and changing laws to fix how people are allowed to invest in the market. I don’t see why those things are not left.
Look at Mondragon Spain as one example of a proven successful example. Like historically successful. They changed how corporations are controlled after WWII and have proven successfully it works.
Cooperatives are neither left nor right. They do not fundamentally change property relations, in that they are based on private property and petite bourgeois class relations. Cooperatives can be part of early socialism, like Huawei in the PRC or the agricultural sectors in the USSR and PRC, or they can be a part of capitalist systems like Mondragon in Spain. At best, they could be considered quasi-socialist.
The reason why “fixing laws about investing” isn’t really “left” is because it doesn’t alter the base mode of production of society. It keeps capitalism intact, it just tweaks how you interact with it. This makes it less right wing than, say, Nazi Germany, but it doesn’t make it left, either.
They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.
I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆
You’re arguing with people on lemmy.ml.
I got nothing better going on.
Just good to keep in mind you’re arguing with communists about idelogy.
Wow. Helping someone for free. Terrible at being a lib.
😆 I appreciate that. Thank you