• mathemachristian[he]@lemmy.ml
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      10 hours ago

      Liberals -> want the means of production to remain privatized aka capitalism
      Leftists -> want the means of production to be publicly owned aka socialism

      • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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        7 hours ago

        That presumes the binary is focused on economy when most nations are still debating freedom from the government and thus liberalism should be the start of the left.

        • IttihadChe@lemmy.ml
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          2 hours ago

          This presumes the liberal view that liberalism is truly “freedom from the government” whatever that means(it’s not) and that such a thing is a requirement for a leftist position (it’s not)

          • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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            2 hours ago

            And you are presuming the discussions being had are about capitalism when they are still debating the role of the government in private ownership.

            It’s a eurocentric position. It’s odd how many “leftists” fall into this.

      • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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        7 hours ago

        No, it fucking has not. It is quite literally the definition of where “the left” begins. In the wake of the French revolution the liberals sat on the left side of parliament.

      • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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        15 hours ago

        Classical liberalism is an iteration of liberalism. It is not liberalism. There are also Democratic liberalism and social liberalism among many others. Almost all lean left of center with classic liberalism being more center

        • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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          12 hours ago

          Even socialliberalism is still for capitalism, meaning it is right wing ideology. Not to mention every single time any declared socialliberal gets elected it turns out they are just ordinary neoliberal austerity ghoul.

        • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
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          14 hours ago

          Yea but neoliberals are not left. The fuck do you think US democrats are classic liberals? Also classic liberals are still capitalist supporting fuckwits, so the distinction is irrelevant when discussing the modern left.

          • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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            14 hours ago

            Right and there is more than classic liberalism. As I said. The majority of the others are left of center with classic liberalism being the outlier. Of which, Democrats still are right of classic liberalism

    • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
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      12 hours ago

      I just wish that people here would take time to explain why liberals are not left instead of just attacking you.

      Liberalism is not left because by definition they are socially progressive but economically conservative.

      I used to think the liberals are “left” because of the Americam mainstream media (by intentionally muddying political terms) interchange liberal between left. But thanks to Philosophy Tube’s beginner’s video explaining what it means, now I know better.

    • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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      18 hours ago

      Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. They emerged together and the former was formed to justify the latter. Over the years it has branched out and there are many forms such as classical liberalism, neoliberalism, social liberalism, etc. but they all defend capitalist property rights and the market. Socialism emerged as the working class response to/critique of liberalism. In the US the term only refers to social liberals, who are in reality centrists. Americans call them leftists only because centrists are slightly to the left of right-wing politics.

      We’re against liberalism as a whole because it’s the ideology that justifies capitalism. We’re against social liberals because they’re seen as fence-sitting cowards and dangerous compromisers.


      This is a very introductory overview to liberalism:

      The most in-depth delving into it is Losurdo’s Liberalism - A counter history, but you’d have to read many more foundational texts before that one.

      • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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        7 hours ago

        It should be the other way around that capitalism was created to justify liberalism because you have liberal philosophers writing decades to centuries before the capitalists.

      • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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        17 hours ago

        Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, the right to private property, and equality before the law.[1][2] Liberals espouse various and often mutually conflicting views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.[3] Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.[4][5]: 11

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

        Emerging together does not mean they are dependent on each other.

        • merdaverse@lemmy.zip
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          7 hours ago

          the right to private property

          Wow that sounds sooo leftist. I think you’re about 150 years late in defining liberalism as “the left”

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              4 hours ago

              Because that is the status quo. Leftism is about progressing onto the next mode of production, not stagnating or regressing, which is right-wing.

        • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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          17 hours ago

          How many books on this topic have you read? Are you aware of the conflicts between liberals and workers, prisoners, women, and colonized people for over 200 years? Do you know the history of the working class movement and its history of conflicts with liberals since the mid 1800s?

          Any one of us can answer these questions. You clearly can’t.

          • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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            7 hours ago

            You read books but do you read current news? Most of the world is still debating if they should be free of the government which is a binary that very much places liberalism on the left.

            Why are you holding such a Eurocentric perspective in face of the fact that most are not having the anticapitalist vs capitalist discussion you seem to think they are having?

          • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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            17 hours ago

            😆

            Do you even read bro

            Yes I read. Like how I read that Wikipedia link and the other supporting links and references I’ve posted

    • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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      7 hours ago

      They are taking a frankly eurocentric perspective which presumes the debate is anticapitalism vs capitalism when I would posit that most nations are still debating liberalism vs authoritarianism hence the claim that they are eurocentric as the binary only makes sense for Europe.

      • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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        5 hours ago

        I agree which is what I was waiting for someone to say. Just want to let you know I appreciate you from saying it. Until then I was just having fun here 😆

      • QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works
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        7 hours ago

        No, you are using a different binary and I would argue you are using the incorrect binary as most are not dividing over support for capitalism.

      • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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        17 hours ago

        Yea but you’re all not authority on any of this. So it doesn’t matter. The rest of the world knows liberalism as left of center. Just facts

        • mathemachristian[he]@lemmy.ml
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          10 hours ago

          we just had a coalition of liberals, "social"democrats and greens here in Germany. Believe me no one thinks that liberals are left of center.

          • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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            5 hours ago

            This isn’t really relevant here. Social liberalism, democratic liberalism as categories are defined as left of center. A green group and another group labelling themselves socialist whatever isn’t changing what the definition is for sometime with different names

            • mathemachristian[he]@lemmy.ml
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              15 minutes ago

              The “other group labelling themselves socialist” is literally the SPD but go off. You have no clue about socialism or its history, so I’m curious according to whose definition social liberalism or democratic liberalism is left of center.

            • grue@lemmy.world
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              6 hours ago

              My other reply to you was literally entirely composed of a supporting link. Quit being disingenuous.

              • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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                5 hours ago

                And I told you, you posted a link to classic liberalism. It is a subset of liberalism it is not liberalism

            • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
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              14 hours ago

              No. We’re right. You’ve been given references. Just because you obstinantly ignore those references does not make you correct or smart.

              • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world
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                14 hours ago

                No I’m right I gave references, nobody has provided anything that has shown that liberalism is right