Liberals in the United States :
Democrats and Republicans aren’t actually against each other, they pretend to be two different parties as it is an effective psy-op to keep the populace believing in a Reformist path to change, so we do not pursue a Revolutionary path instead. As long as the populace continues to believe a Reformist path (like voting) is able to save them, the Capitalists can continue doing what ever they want, only Revolution can save us (IE we must save ourselves by overthrowing the Capitalists), and only once the people in general realize this, can Revolution actually succeed. It is also why we must keep pointing out to people how the system is rigged against us, how as long as we live in Capitalism Democracy is a lie and the oppression and exploitation and U.S. bombings will continue.
100% not a psy-op or collusion. They really just both bought deeply into the shift to neoliberalism in the 80’s, and it has so defined politics for the last 4 decades that few politicians have wrapped their heads around the fact that the continual rejection of both parties by the people is really a rejection of that neoloberalism that we’re clearly in the death throes of. Trump succeeded not because every person who voted for him was a racist (I mean, that’s definitely a big cadre among his supporters, but it isn’t what got him in), he succeeded because people are so desperate to end the neoliberal norm that’s crushing everyone that they’ll vote for a guy that literally soft-pedals fascism over another neoliberal.
But I really do think the majority of them are true believers. They’ve been born and raised in that politically environment. It’s all they know and they really can’t imagine anything else, even if it’s really only been a few generations ago that things looked very different.
The “Founding Fathers” (rich slavers) had set up the “Democracy” (of the rich) with “Checks and Balances” to prevent the “Tyranny of the Majority” (Actual Democracy) precisely so the Capitalist Class (them) would remain in complete control. Considering this, it is very unlikely the modern Capitalist Class would somehow not be aware of the ways their own class has set things up to keep themselves on top and the rest of us underfoot. It is much more likely they know exactly what they are doing up on the stage, that all the real decision making is done behind closed doors, that the Billionaires and Trillionaires get the final say, and that the electoral clown show in the big party tent exists to fool the populace, only different from the start in that they got better at it. I remember when Biden straight up looked like he was having an orgasm in response to Trump “winning the election” as if it’s what he wanted to happen, like say, because it would mean they can get everything they want WITHOUT having to hide the shit they do, and so Trump also functions as a scapegoat, if they get everything the want to just “cast all the blame on Trump” Trump goes off to live in blood soaked luxury, having done his job, then the Democrats swoop in to “save the day”. Such a tactic can only work however if people fall for the clown show and don’t realize that it is the entire Capitalist system itself that is the problem and the only way forward is to overthrow it and replace it with a Socialist system.
I don’t entirely agree.
While I don’t agree with the way Congress is arranged with a clearly establishment-favoring Senate, we shouldn’t take this to mean there’s no such thing as a tyranny of majority as we’ve literally seen it play out historically many times. Look at Jim Crowe laws passed by majority white populations that harshly kept black Americans down for years up into living memory. Or anti-gay laws… tyrannies of majority 100% happen and it’s a big reason why we have specific Constitutional rights that try to prevent it. Groups using democracy as a cudgel to smack down other groups certainly happens though. I would agree that the Senate is more about preserving current power structures than actually trying to prevent that though.
I also just don’t agree at all that Biden wanted Trump to win… I think this is a hammer looking for a nail and seeing one, honestly. We just aren’t going to agree on that point and aren’t going to see each other’s point of view, and we’re not going to be able to prove hidden intentions, so I’m not sure this point is worth harping on. What I would say is that as Democrats and Republicans are both neolibs, Democrats would sooner see a Republican elected over someone they deem to be an actual threat from the left.
A distinction without a difference. There is no need for collusion when you’re moving in the same social circles, meeting the same people, having your campaign funded by the same social class with the same needs and objectives.
And yes, Trump was a mold breaker there, but only as a facade, the reality is not that Trump is “rejecting” neoliberalism, it is that neoliberalism is breaking apart, by its own incoherence, in the US as everywhere else.
To deny the difference is to deny what makes the spectacle compelling
Second part first, agree totally. I don’t mean to suggest Trump truly represents some sea change against neoloberalism… but his rhetoric was very much a rejection of a lot of it. He’s absolutely a liar in terms of actually representing change from the status quo… he’s a pure kleptocrat, plain and simple. But the point is that facade is what resonated with people because even those without the knowledge base or words to form why they’re over neoliberalism, are very much over neoliberalism. Regular people, not, not just political nerds.
First part, hard disagree because it informs strategy on how to move past it. If you believe both sides are colluding to keep the masses down and there’s no real electoral path to improvement… well, we’re at the stage of violent revolution and there’s no point faffing about further. Neither of us are out there with rifles yet, so I’d argue neither of us really, truly thinks that’s the case yet. Because that actually does happen in places like Gaza, and for good reason - they literally have no other recourse. We’ve got the table tilted against us, but ultimately we can and do upset the institutional power still. Trump, while he didn’t represent real change, was absolutely totally rejected by institutional power in his initial run and managed to win by establishing a faux-populist cult of personality… that literally could not have worked if electoralism was truly totally dead.
well, we’re at the stage of violent revolution and there’s no point faffing about further
I do believe we are at the stage where this is the only means of change. We’re not doing it because most people are still delusional (or generously, “hopeful”) that we are not, or don’t even think about changing things at all by desperation / capitulation / ignorance.
Then why aren’t you out there doing it?
Why do you assume they aren’t? Because they can type comments?
Because nobody is.
I just think it pretty clearly isn’t the only way to fight established power when we saw a person that was hated by most establishment powers at the time of his first election and who spent half the money campaigning ended up beating them. Sure, he was obviously not interested in real change, but the fact is they didn’t want him in and he got in anyway. Americans are done with neoliberalism and are desperately looking for alternatives. Even worse ones…
I remember when they were trying to endorse Mike Bloomberg the republican billionaire.
This “Good” Cop / “Bad” Cop routine has been going on for decades. Both parties are still cops and ACAB.
Just to be clear, Cops being bad is not an inherent property of them in and of itself, but rather Cops serve the State, and in a Capitalist country, the State serves Capital, and so the Cops also serve Capital, but in a Socialist country, such as China, the Cops are completely different as the State actually serves the interest of the overall masses, and so the Cops also by extension.
It’s more inherent than that in most cases. The job attracts power trippers, the culture and standards in most precincts encourages abusive assholes and corruption, and once the cops can cover for each other it becomes self-selecting for abuse. At least in North America, cops are heavily pre-disposed to being bastards, even before the reality of their purpose.
That is an issue, though with that in mind one major difference between Capitalism and Socialism is that Capitalism doesn’t really care if Cops are abusive sacks of shit, so long as they keep serving the interests of Capital, on the other hand, in Socialism the whole point of the system is to best serve the interests and well being of the people in what ever capacity the current level of development of the country can provide, and so while Capitalism let’s Cops fester with power hungry racists, Socialism actively works to root out and remove corruption, finding and kicking out the power abusers.
ACUCAB just doesn’t have the same snap to it, but Under Capitalism is an important distinction indeed. Reminds me of a Parenti quote about why socialist states have to have a significant level of state authority because of constant capitalist incursions and subterfuge.
If “stop supporting genocide” isn’t the first step, then what the fuck is? I can’t think of a lower bar, but I’m told it’s actually a “purity test”.
Genuinely speaking the people crying about MAGA being a cult are acting cultish by expecting you to vote for someone who is openly promising to maintain genocide; MAGA is now openly saying they don’t care about all the evil stuff Trump has done, and blue MAGA are saying they don’t care if their favorite lib candidate is going to maintain genocide.
If Adolf had been an actual socialist, and the guy he was running against was literally satan, would they actually say the solution here is to vote holocaust no matter who?
If you can’t see past your own nose then what else is worse? Your own nose isn’t a purity test it’s just your character… almost like it’s YOUR OWN NOSE.
Mfw the people who complain the loudest about ideological purity tests are the ones with dogshit ideological purity
Exactly
I mean if you pay taxes in there US you’re a genocidal POS.
That’s how you’ll get President JD Vance.
I wouldn’t vote for a republican even for a dog shit picker upper position!
Coalition building is required in any free society, and guess what, non-participation isn’t absolution.
“We gotta coalition build with these nazis”
“you don’t understand we have to build a coalition with the Nazis, if we don’t then we won’t be able to form a stable government” - SPD
Lemmy.ml “Don’t hate the west while looking past Uyghurs in China” Challenge (Impossible)
We haven’t looked past the Uyghurs, actually. In fact we’ve looked very closely.
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing Salafi terrorist into Xinjiang, and once its efforts failed, it made lemonade out of its lemon by concocting and promoting a genocide narrative.
The only countries pushing this narrative are the “always the same map” imperial core countries, which just so happen to be largely the same ones supporting Israel’s genocide.
Almost no predominantly-Muslim country buys the Uyghur genocide narrative, because they know it’s bullshit, because they talked to the Uyghurs themselves.
https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330 #HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent
Genocide is more than just killing, it’s the deliberate destruction of a people including its culture and institutions.
(a) Show me the Uyghur bodies
(b) Show me the serious bodily or mental harm
(c) Show me the conditions calculated to bring about physical destruction in whole or in part
(d) Show me the measures intended to prevent births within the group
In accordance with China’s affirmative action policies towards ethnic minorities, all non-Han ethnic groups were subject to different laws and were usually allowed to have two children in urban areas, and three or four in rural areas.
(e) Show me the forcible transfer of children from one group to another group
violent incidents in East Turkestan
I wonder where those Salafi terrorists came from? Oh right: the US, UK, and Israel organized, funded, and trained them, as they did Al Qaeda and the various flavors of ISIS/ISIL, including the “moderate rebels” that just took over Syria. The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent.
Going to start ranting about white genocide in South Africa next?
Me when shitlibs bring up a nonexistent genocide in China literally every single time someone mentions the genocide in Palestine
can provide some evidence of this genocide that doesnt originate from cia ?
The totally real invisible genocide in China folks, brought to you by literally the exact same government that just spent two years telling you there was no genocide in Gaza
How morons pretend voting happens…
Really tired of “both sides bad.” Political change should not be moving fast and breaking things.
Right now we have a hole to dig out from. We need to get to the point where we can vote for the people we really want.
By not voting you say that everything is fine and you are okay with the status quo.
Vote for the change we need right now. Do not let our future slip away.
Genuinly curious. With your plan to vote for the democrats to dig out of the hole the US has dug itself, how will you be able to vote for the party that you want to vote for later?
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Dam can one ask a question without geting barated for speling mistakes? I’ll refere you to some resources about how revolution might make things better but I’m not sure if you interested in engaging with a proper conversation atm.
You’re dodging the question
You’re misspelling the question missing the point and not making sense. But everyone else is wrong…
I’m not OP. You’re still doing it btw
The only reason you wouldn’t want to break things right now means you still think there is good in the system. The system is working as intended and absolutely needs to be broken so something better can be made.
Alternatively, there can be the simple recognition that breaking the system that exists will result in a mass casualty event as current systems keeping the masses alive break down, and the resulting collapse will be capitalized on (lol) by your local warlord.
I’m sure the local warlord will be a great bastion of anti authoritarian praxis.
A mass casualty event? Brother we’ve been in the mass extinction event for years, and every day we don’t destroy the system that created it is another day the odds of the human species surviving the next couple centuries continues to fall towards zero.
Yes, I am certain that your life will begin improving measurably when the food runs out.
Just one more election bro, I know we have The Camps and everyone on earth has organs laden with microplastic and we’ve killed fully one third of the forests and the oceans are turning to acid, but now is not the time for radical change bro
I’m sure your life will (moderately, bipartisanly) improve when the oceanic algae is all dead and you can no longer breathe. At least then you won’t have the air to speak this tired nonsense, and I’ll only have to listen to our gasping coughs as we wait for the harm reduction to kick in.
Yes, I am certain that your life will begin improving measurably when the food runs out.
Revolutions have had a history of dramatically improving living conditions for everyone as soon as the old system is abolished. The Russian revolution ended famine and doubled life expectancy.
Alternatively, there can be the simple recognition that breaking the system that exists will result in a mass casualty event
Revolutions also don’t have to result in violence (think of a mass strike across the entire country that never ends). But when capitalism gets desperate it will start a civil war if that is its only hope to maintain the old system.
And think about the mass suffering caused by mass poverty, genocide, minority oppression, political polarisation, endless war, boring work and the list goes on. If one revolution is all it takes to install a democratic society and fix so many of our problems, I know I’m on board.
Yeah, everyone except the people that end up against the wall.
More often than not, those people aren’t the ones causing the structural problems in society. The really rich people with the power all escape before that point.
Yeah, everyone except the people that end up against the wall.
Yes generally peoples living conditions do not improve for people who have been shot dead by a firing squad, since they stop living. Although can you please be more specific, I’m not sure how that is related to our discussion.
More often than not, those people aren’t the ones causing the structural problems in society. The really rich people with the power all escape before that point.
Okay, I’m not sure if that is true or not but I don’t think that is relevant anyway.
Source: my ass
Now you’re just lazily regurgitating Orwell-style fed bullshit about how somehow revolution won’t change anything.
“Everyone except the people that end up against the wall” yeah that’s the point dumbass, the oligarchs cannot be allowed to fuck up the new world too
There are already thousands and more dying by the second with the current system. There is already a mass causality event and it will continue to get worse as the current system makes the world less and less inhabitable.
And we don’t have to have a “local warlord” the idea that people can put something better in place then fascism is ironically a right wing talking point. Though I blame the propaganda that has caused us to view our fellow as a enemy instead a comrade. But that’s a whole other point.
Correct on all counts.
And yet, the reality is that the collapse of society will lead to even more casualties. The other reality is that I don’t know of a single collapsed society that became altruistic, and did not devolve into local warlord killing each other.
you’ve been boiled too slow
What an astute observation! I wouldn’t even describe it as a boil, maybe a light simmer if anything. Because you know what? My life is pretty nice.
So now that we have established that fact, perhaps it would be prudent to consider how you reach the majority of the population that is in my boat (not literally, I mean, when I’m on my boat I’m generally reading a book on my own). But I mean the ones that think like this and don’t read books by Kropotkin.
Because you know what? My life is pretty nice.
Liberals just cutting straight to the heart of what they care about
Yeah, no shit. I do things to improve my life. If you don’t, then you’re either lying or an actual example of capitalist caricatures of leftism, just looking for a handout.
Edit: And if you’re not acting to improve your life and the lives around you, what’s the purpose of revolution? Action for the sake of Action? That’s point #3 on Umberto Eco’s list of the 14 common features of fascism.
Your life is nice because of the death and destruction of those who your system deems to be lesser. If you can’t be motivated to change things because you can’t see the issue with the cost of your comfort, you’re going to learn some very hard lessons once people you thought were on your side start fighting you.
yep indeed
In order to effectively break the system you need organized Revolution, and for that it must be supported by the masses, and for mass support it must help people, meaning the Revolution must be building something like a state within itself to support it’s own Revolution, so when it is big enough, when it finally has overthrown the Capitalists, it will already be prepared to take over as a governing body. The only chaos then is in the Revolution itself, but a small moment of bloody violence in plane sight is nothing compared to the massive death, destruction, torture and despair, that the system does constantly out of sight, hidden away (as much as it even can hide it), that the small by comparison but more in sight and quicker violence of a Revolution which will finally end it.
Okay. Well, when this glorious mythic Revolution begins, we will see what happens. Until the second coming of the Revolution, were stuck in reality. Although it seems some of us might be stuck is a certain level of Revolution Revolution worship.
Revolution.
See, because the anglosphere is drenched in leftover christian thought, and because liberals fundamentally have a magical view of the world and society, you see revolution as something akin to the rapture: some grand external event to be prayed for and waited on. Meanwhile, since communists have a scientific view of the world and society, we see revolution as a machine to be built. What you’re doing is the equivalent of walking up to a shipyard and going “Pffft, good luck magically manifesting your glorious ships, idiot.” Just a fundamental misunderstanding of how history develops. Movements just spontaneously arise at full strength out of nowhere in the movies and video games we all grew up on, so of course reality must work the same way, right?
You want to talk about “we’re in reality”? Yeah, we’re in the reality where the working class in many countries have already achieved the building of a revolution. That’s a concrete fact, not some article of faith you can pessimistically handwave away to justify your continued murderous apathy. We live in reality, so roll up your sleeves and get to work with the rest of us.
Okay. Well, when all your hard work leads to actual tangible results that are better than the status quo, then we’ll talk.
Until then, less blabbing and more sleeve rolling
“Build a revolution for me and then I’ll show up after”
Consumer brain is a disease on par with Alzheimer’s. You’ll never be anything but a dead weight to any social organization with that attitude. Look around yourself, opportunities to build have never been more abundant. I’ve helped create a recurring mutual aid event in the community where we exhange food, clothing and services, much of it homegrown and handmade. We have regular self defense training and educational lectures from people of different expertise. We’re connected with the local ICE watch org, a growing anti data-center movement and Palestinian orgs for miles. We are beginning to host study sessions and draw up outlines for political education. We even have a direct member with a shot at city council, which would make our job even easier than it is now, which, I gotta tell you, is pretty easy these days. People are fucking done with all of it.
All of this and more can be yours. This is what I have achieved in less than one year of really, actively studying and trying after having spent the previous decade as a depressed addict. The only thing holding you back is this learned helplessness, this ingrained idea that someone else has to do it first because you are incapable.
It wont just magically happen on it’s own, if we only wait for it we are more likely to see the inside of a US death camp as the Capitalist rulling class is getting scared and desperate and have been laying the foundation for the people to be moved further into Fascism for a long time. It is possible only with our willingness to organise together within one or more (cooperating) Revolutionary Parties to learn and use Marxist Leninist Theory to slowly awaken Class Consciousness within the population and prepare the way for a successful Revolution supported by the newly awakened masses. This has succeeded many times already, even though the USSR unfortunately collapsed, Cuba, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Vietnam, Laos, and the People’s Republic of China are still standing against all the Capitalist Imperialist hostile odds, and China in particularly is more technologically and scientifically advanced then the US by now, and have provided enormous improvement to the lives of everyone they get involved with. It is why the Capitalist Imperialist “Core Countries” (Global North) are so desperate to smear them with endless lies and nonsense not based in reality or evidence, and the CIA/MI6/MOSSAD assert their control and spread such misinformation via “news” (Propaganda is basically just another name for this give or take), Hollywood, Social Media AI bots, Youtube algorithmic control, and even our very Video Games (do people believe Call of Duty is politically neutral).
With all of that they shape our very view of reality to make us support things against our own interests, and to avoid learning anything real about the countries that threaten Capital.
Edit: I was a little confusing about the point on propaganda, I mean that it is more or less another word for news, mostly involving the handing out of pamflets or leaflets, it has been twisted into being the same as saying “misinformation” very likely as a way of discrediting bottom up, glass roots style movements (what the working class has access to as a way of communicating among the populace) while leaving the Capitalists corporate “news” reputationally intact.
Propaganda was originally a branch of the Catholic Church, so the connotation is that it’s as full of crap and dishonesty as apologetics.
I don’t know about the history of the Church, but I do know that the word has been used for the handing out of legitimate and accurate information on a paper medium as a way of spreading awareness when one is censored by the State and cannot use the normal channels, and it has been used this way for a long long time before the use of it to mean the same as “lies” was popular.
Political change should not be moving fast and breaking things.
It should absolutely 100% be that when the alternative is genocide and fascism.
We need to get to the point where we can vote for the people we really want.
You people have actual short term memory loss
How many more of these stinking, double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote FOR something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?
-Hunter S Thompson, 56 years ago
- we find here two great gangs of political speculators, who alternately take possession of the state power and exploit it by the most corrupt means and for the most corrupt ends – and the nation is powerless against these two great cartels of politicians, who are ostensibly its servants, but in reality exploit and plunder it. *
Frederick Engels 135 years ago
That shithole’s banana republic politics is the longest running gag in history.
This is the most political-history ignorant comment I’ve read in a very long time.
How do you think people have rights?
Yeah like how do you vote for voting rights before you even get them? 🔨
History started with the first election of the USA.
“We need to vote for change and to dig ourselves out from this hole!”
-Proceeds to vote for Democrats, who change nothing, and dig the hole deeper.
“Oh well, my memory will have reset long before the next election comes around, so we can do it all again!”
LOL
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What an insane sentence to put in the mockery font
It’s been a multi year mockery of common sense while even thinking of discussing common good being screamed out of the room by folks screaming over listening. It’s been common and weird while certain folks lean into it…
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What’s the common sense? Is it “we must vote, literally sign our approval by name, for a genocide?”
It’s common sense getting lost to “GeNoCiDe or nothing!” As offered by idiots…
Genuinely indecipherable, enigma-like
Precisely. We are not in a place where it is possible to make a different choice. Other countries seem to not understand it - do you know how massive our country is? How inconsistent our education is? How divided we are? We are not, under any circumstance, uniting half of the country in voting 3rd party, especially not now when tensions are so high. We have to get past the point where being picky dooms us to the greater of two evils. Should it work this way? Of course not. Should we try to change this stupid two party bullshit? Absolutely…but not right now. Right now, there is too much at stake.
Should we try to change this stupid two party bullshit? Absolutely…but not right now. Right now, there is too much at stake.
With such mentality, pro status quo, change won’t ever happen.
Not directly going for the throat of the two party system =/= pro status quo. I’m saying we cannot skip over everything else before we can take that on. If you truly believe that we can just jump to that complete overthrowing of the government rather than first address immediate dangers on smaller scales and building up what’s been destroyed, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Étapisme failed hard everywhere. Why repeating the same mistakes?
Should we try to change this stupid two party bullshit? Absolutely…but not right now. Right now, there is too much at stake.
Its sad that people are so ignorant they don’t realize that the controlled opposition wing of the US empire has done this for every election, and people are still falling for it. Liberals have the memory of a goldfish, and are naive enough to think the US is a democracy.
And what exactly do you propose? How do YOU think we unite the entire country in making this change? Because right now, half of it is brainwashed by a cult. Things in 2026 are completely different from revolutions in the past and need a different approach. So if I’m so ignorant, then please, enlighten me on how we invoke change on such a massive scale right now, today, instead of focusing on getting to a mediocre point where basic rights aren’t being stripped away one by one. Because as someone who has a life outside of the internet and isn’t a straight white man, I have much more immediate concerns for the safety of myself and my loved ones than a grandiose plan to overthrow the government. So I implore you to give me somewhere to start.
Dessalines already linked the reading guide I put together, but I want to address something you bring up. Conditions are different from past and present revolutions, correct. In what ways, though? What part of revolutionary strategy is general, and what part is particular? What do we take, and what do we have to figure out? The truth is that much of revolutionary strategy is very similar, but what changes is the class outlook.
Western countries are generally imperialist, and the US is also a settler-colony. This impacts the class demographics. The US Empire is also in decay. Gradually, the working classes have interests more aligned with the global south, ie ending the empire. This type of revolution has not really happened yet, but this doesn’t mean revolution isn’t still necessary.
Step one is to get organized, join an org like PSL. Step two is to educate yourself and others on theory, history, and practice. Step three is to agitate among the people and bring them into the fold, creating a unified and disciplined working class with the skills and knowledge to correctly overcome revolutionary obstacles.
Step one is education about what works, and doesn’t, and how worker liberation has been acheived in the past. Here’s a good reading list from @Cowbee@lemmy.ml , and one that I host.
Step two is organizing: joining a communist / working-class party, and if none exist, starting one like the Black Panthers did. Which org you join depends on which country you live in; but we can only gain liberation by joining organizations which push our interests and not those of capitalists.
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word “Wait!” It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This “Wait” has almost always meant “Never.” We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that “justice too long delayed is justice denied.”
Correct, it’s not voluntarily given. I’m not saying we should keel over and die. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand about that. I’m saying right now we have much more dire issues than the two party system. We can’t skip to that. Everyone loves to say “but there will never be a good time, you have to do it now!!” Okay, do WHAT now? Like I asked the other person under my reply, what exactly do you think we should do to completely skip over the shit that’s close to home and attack the two party system? We have to address the issues that are plucking us off one by one before we as a nation can have the strength and unity to take on the core principle of our government.
The first step to finding a solution is to recognize that the existing tools are woefully insufficient. Suppose we didn’t have elections at all, suppose all we had was a monarchy where the only recourse within the system was to petition the king, to ask him nicely to act on our behalf. Should we still rely on that? Should we drop other approaches because they might sour the king’s mood?
With a little imagination, you can find that there are inherent mechanisms for asserting power that are not provided by the system and which exist regardless of the system’s best efforts to take them away. All systems are manmade and can be changed and dismantled if enough people stop cooperating with it. This does not have to look like a traditional revolution, with pitched battles and whatnot. Strikes, protests, development of mutual aid networks and dual power structures, even targeted boycotts can be more effective than voting for a candidate hand-picked by the ruling class.
The electoral system keeps people disorganized and divided, it directs energy away from those tactics instead of towards them. The idea that non-disruptive tactics could possibly someday produce change makes people unwilling to engage in tactics that are more disruptive, because nobody really likes being disruptive, taking risks, creating tension, but that tension is necessary to effect change.
The effect that electoral politics has on defining people’s political identities cannot be overstated. The moment you cast your vote, no matter how reluctant it may be, there will be a part of you that wants to justify and defend your choice and before you know it you’re now defending things that you never would otherwise. Nearly all political discourse becomes colored by this question of who to vote for. Again, think about how you would read news stories differently if you had no mechanism within the system for expressing your voice. But that is essentially where we’re at because the mechanisms provided by the system are ineffective, but while we have this idea that they could be effective, people still define themselves along those lines.
Let me give you an example. I live in a solidly blue state, previously, I lived in a solidly red state for most of my life. At no point has my vote for president had any impact on the outcome whatsoever. This is true for the vast majority of Americans. And yet, when I talk about my refusal to vote Harris or Biden, people yell at me, a lot. Why? It has no material impact. It’s because it’s primarily a cultural signifier, a way of defining a political identity, and any material consequences are of secondary consideration. So long as people are allowing bourgeois parties to shape and define their political identities, that’s going to dissuade them from engaging in direct action.
Absolutely…but not right now. Right now, there is too much at stake.
This would be more persuasive if you didn’t say it every election for decades.
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Democrats arming genocide is now “Russian propaganda”, I am so happy to see the blue maga conspiracy world crumble on contact with reality, you smug racist morons truly deserve every ounce of the confusion and impotent rage that your self-inflicted future has in store for you.
There’s been more democratic socialists elected this year than ever.
Which support genocide! https://youtu.be/pKAYLj1TpRI
DSA is a freaking joke
Yeah I find this push for the US to take arms against the US army kind of a weird one at this point. It’s not going to happen overnight and the US is fucking huge. Like, do you all realize how geographically BIG the US is? Do you have any understanding of the difficulties we face in mounting any sort of physical resistance to this shit? You’re solidly delusional if you think complaining at individuals on Lemmy is going to spark a physical revolution here.
Okay, counter point. Why complain at people on Lemmy then for pointing out facts? You kind of make it apparent this way that this is about your world view being challenged.
If you acknowledge that you have to do more then vote and America is not a democracy. It means you have wasted you time and your life on people who literally cannot care about you with the way the system is.
We are not voting our way out of fascism. We are not fixing a system working as intended.
They could at least stop actively supporting it and cheering it on, but that’s too “divisive” 🙄
Yeah US citizens on Lemmy really celebrate it /s
Often, yes
Lmao don’t @ me on this if you aren’t openly rude to any military or police involved person.
You think all 350 million people in the US worship cops and military?
lol don’t @ you - you replied to my comment.
Are you friends with anyone who works on military projects, in the “defense” industry, is in the military or has served in the military in the past (same question for police)?
Do you attend events that include “thanking the troops”? Do you allow your kids to go on field trips that involve the military or cops? Do you go to war museums? Participate in or support Cadet programs?
Have you filed an objection to selective service (if you fall into the demographic that it applies to? Are you rude to recruiters? Do you protest recruitment offices if they open in your community?
If yes, then congrats on your gold star for the bare minimum. If not then maybe you and the other the 350 million Americans can ask themselves why they put their social comfort over human rights .
(And yes I do these things in my own country)
You know the take is factually correct but you still dismiss it because you want treats for yourself and you are willing to compromise on US imperialism for it.
Nah, I agree with the take. I disagree that fighting in the comment section against people who are more aware than the average us citizen is going to produce the results you want.
You are literally fighting against people who are calling out US imperialism.
lol I’m not fighting, I’m having a discussion.
You’ve taken the position that anything except shouting about revolution is simping for the US. There’s no middle ground for talking with you apparently.
If you seriously support having a Revolution in the US then reading Theory is not optional, there are errors upon errors upon errors that people inevitably fall into if they do not have a correct understanding of the world, it’s history, and how society, economy, the state, Capitalism and so on actually work, which kills a Revolution and result in horrible failure. Cowbee (I think, or maybe it was yogthot or how ever the name is spelt) has a good beginners reading list you can work through, at the least you should read works by Marx, Engels, and Lenin at a minimum.
“You’re just fighting, I’m simply having a discussion!”
Wait, so being in favor of imperialism is taking a position, but being against imperialism is fighting people?
Revolution, or invasion, is the only solution for the US. People outside don’t believe in people inside’s willingness to make the former happen. The latter is the retribution waiting to blow in their faces.
