slowly divert my work to different people in the company
So you’ve been promoted to a management position.
You can make fun of managers not doing work. You know what’s worse than someone at manager/director level that doesn’t do any work? One that insists on doing so! Trust me, first hand experience.
The absolute worst are the micro-managers. They don’t want to do work, but they also don’t want to delegate.
Instead they opt for that limbo between, where the only “work” they do is redundant at best, and every employee under them feels like a vole being tracked by a hungry hawk.
I worked for basically Michael Scott at some point in my life. Everyone knew that he had the easiest job on the planet, and he still didn’t do it, and we were all glad he didn’t. He could talk to a room full of people for hours and explain his position in the company for so long that you forgot what you even asked.
If you think the connection to Michael Scott ends there, you’d be wrong. You would always know when he had a new girlfriend, because he would talk about her all the time. One time he connected his laptop to the projector and the first thing that opened was a picture of his girlfriend. He looked at it, said: OH. Made sure everyone saw her and then pretended to hurry to start his speech.
One day he came to work, sat in my car (i was on my way to a jobsite and had no idea why he was there.) i didn’t want to talk, so i just took off. After some awkward silence, he said: i’m not even supposed to work today. I nodded, i had no idea. He asked if i knew why he’s here. I said nope. He said he was supposed to get married today but his girlfriend fucked two dudes in the jacuzzi yesterday.
There are countless stories like that and all i could think about was: this guy makes 60k a year by working two days a week. And i don’t mean because he was slacking off the rest, he was only employed 20%
OP is working for a huge corporation, so slacking off and getting paid for that is ethical.
I’d go even one step further and say that slacking off is more ethical than actually working in that situation.
depends on what huge organization it is
Organizations don’t get big from kindness.
Red cross, EPA, and FDA are all large organizations imo. Definitely outliers, but theyy do exist and I wouldn’t consider it ethical to take their money without working.
I would absolutely consider it ethical to take money from the american red cross without working.
The EPA and FDA didn’t get big from kindness.
Tf part of Lemmy did I find myself in?
The thread you are replying to is discussing whether or not it can ever be more ethical to not slack off at work while working for a large organization.
Given that context, your comment can be taken as you saying there is no such large organization that is more ethical to not slack off at work for, as there is no large organization that is kind.
I am providing examples of large organizations that I find more ethical to not slack off while working for. I was not trying to provide examples of large organizations that are kind.
Big subgenius energy in anon’s post.
The subgenius MUST have slack!
Anon playing a dangerous game with management.
It’s all well and good until they find you, figure out what you’ve been doing (or rather not doing), then fire you and attempt to sue you for damages.
CYA. Make at least some attempts to be noticed. If they do notice you, at least you got a little bit of easily excusable free time - if they don’t, now you get the easy life AND a paper trail so they can’t say “why didn’t you try to tell us”.
I don’t know if they have much of a case to sue you, if you fall through the cracks on their own negligence. Fire you, yes. Sue, I am doubtful most larger businesses would even try. They’d rather solve the problem and sweep it under the carpet in my experience. Not USA experience of course, but still the attitude would be similar I expect.
I would worry a bit about whether they’re allowed to give negative references though. Because if so, it might not be so easy to get another job after.
Best move would be to line up another job to start like a month before the review, and never reach the review stage. Even if discovered, most people that would “know” wouldn’t really be driven to report anything if they’re leaving anyway. The “not my problem, and this will make it my problem” attitude in big companies is real.
I would love to hear someone leverage this negative review as cleverness in an interview though
I think in Spain there was a legal case, but that person was paid for decades without any work. And it was also public funds, as the employer was some municipality iirk
I looked at that. Actually I would argue that was even more negligence by the management there. I mean they couldn’t even say how long he’d not been working for.
But in reality he was paid for at least 6 years of work (and they suspected more) and only fined for 1 year of pay. So, he’s still a winner I think. And yes, public funds likely did help in bringing that case forward.
Most larger private businesses tend to avoid going to a court for such things unless they need to in my experience.
I mean it’s kinda embarrassing for the company to pay people to do nothing. It makes them seem a bit incompetent. I worked in a military branch where the three biggest fish of the branch got fired (maybe sued) because they hardly did anything. They would go to work, and then go on hunting trips together or shit like that. They did that for years, but they didn’t really know how long. So now people obviously began to wonder what else they are doing with their money, and why no one realised that there were 3 people making an absurd amount of money for a job that is already super chill and overpaid, that didn’t even do the work of one competent employee. I remember they had trouble finding replacements, so no one did their job until i left like a year or two later.
There is no case to sue them. It’s the management responsibility, not the workers to assign work. They don’t need to go out seeking it.
While this is technically true, some pissed off business wanting to make an example of you, can most definitely cost you a lot of money trying to sue you in court.
trying to sue you in court.
Hmm, You’d probably get by fine representing yourself. Given it’s a bad idea…
I’d probably pick up a remote side job to work during the first job and store about 10k away to handle eventual legal fees. You wouldn’t need much of a lawyer to defend yourself.
I heard many similar stories like that from friends and it’s always a bit shocking to me. I’m no go getter or anything, i run my own business, but even then, i don’t want to work more than i really have to. But i just really can’t imagine what that must be like.
I had a friend who worked as a static engineer. He then worked for a company that made bearings for big machines, which wasn’t his line of work but he liked it. The company got bought by another company who did something different and he just fell through the cracks. At first he was super anxious and just pretended to draw on his drawing board and had excel open on his computer. But no one cared, a lot of people switched jobs and suddenly he didn’t really know anyone anymore and after a few month he told me that he doesn’t really know what his job is.
I’ve had jobs that amounted to sitting around waiting for work and hated it. I’m the first to tell people that I work just hard enough to not be bored and to keep everything under control
disclaimer: I’m not a bootlicker, all’s fair game for how you earn your keep
but there’s no way a competent person finds themselves not knowing what their job role is
that being said: a dubs a dub I guess ?
Have you ever worked in corporate?
‘Systemic dysfunction? Sounds like a personal failing.’
From what i gathered, the whole company was a huge mess. It was basically a very small company buying A big company that was going under. It was kind of the inverse of how these things would usually go. So the new company moved their things into the old factory so to say. With the merger, new people working with old people and new working spaces and what not. He shared his little office with another guy who quit in the merger because he was 62 and wasn’t gonna have it. People kinda just started working.
Fuck this guy. Living out my dream ;'(
If we ignore the actual stress of a manager suddenly finding out and asking you to report what you have been doing. Probably still possible to bullshit long enough in a big company to recover a normal situation or find another job.
This is why you shouldn’t get rid of all your work. Keep a bit and make it immaculate. If they ask why you haven’t done more, just say “nobody asked me to.”
Problem with that approach is that they will argue that if you didn’t have enough work to do, you should have asked for more. OP knowingly slipped through the cracks to, so the argument of ‘I don’t have a line manager to give me any’ probably isn’t going to cut it as their work will argue that OP should’ve gone to HR to sort their responsibilities as soon as they were aware.
They might get fired but no one has to “seek” extra work, there’s no legal obligation. If they do their simple existing task, they are meeting known expectations.
If you get fired, you can sue for wrongful termination and file for unemployment. But then you still need to find a new job.
Instead, take on extra work that’s incredibly easy but also has a paper trail that you can point to. You might even get a raise. :)
I mean it doesn’t sound like they’re seeking ‘extra’ work, because Anon is not doing any work at all. I’d argue there’s a difference between ‘extra work’ and ‘any work’.
They’re not meeting expectations either because the expectation for their role is unlikely to be ‘doing fuck all’, the expectation is doing whatever job is outlined in their JD, which they’re demonstrably not.
Again, I don’t really care either way. Do what you can get away with, but be cognisant of the risks, and how that might affect your future employability otherwise you may find yourself doing nothing because you don’t have a job at all.
I agree that anon shouldn’t have given away their existing tasks. And that being fired is the likely end of this road.
Just clarifying that if you are doing your stated tasks, you aren’t in some sort of legal violation by not seeking more work. You.might get passed over for a later promotion, or deemed as dead weight in a layoff round, but you aren’t doing anything criminal
I don’t know what kind of fucked up country you live in, but in my the employer- employee relationship means that the employer dictates what work you do and when, so if they don’t give you anything to do that’s on them.
Going further even better if you are self employed and on a cintreact thats fix rather than hours based, they have even less of a case, contract says you will charge x amount every month, if they don’t contact you with any issue that’s on them.
I’m from the UK. In most working environments there is an expectation of maturity and responsibility. If you don’t have enough work to do there is an expectation that you, as an employee, are responsible and mature enough to ask your manager for more as ultimately that is what you’re being paid to do - work, whether you like that or not. If you have nothing to do, and deliberately do nothing about that then your employer has reasonable grounds to at least raise this as an issue. If you’re not seen as a someone who takes their job seriously, then you may find yourself looking for a new one if your department needs to downsize, for example.
Also, regardless of whether your manager should’ve known or not, that doesn’t mean your not also at fault for not telling them. If you tell them, and nothing changes, then that’s a different story entirely.
Let me put it this way: if your manager turned around and asked what you’ve been doing for the last X months and your response was ‘nothing’ and then tried to pass that off as their fault, I wouldn’t imagine many employers would be too sympathetic to your arguments.
I wouldn’t imagine many employers would be too sympathetic to your arguments.
Duh, they’re butthurt they fucked up, but also who cares if they’re sympathetic?
If your employee can go months doing nothing then you’re a shite boss who’s even worse than that employee, frankly
Duh, they’re butthurt they fucked up, but also who cares if they’re sympathetic?
If you want to keep the job, you should.
Look, if this works for OP and others, great. More power to them. But the reality is that, in most situations this isn’t going to end up with the whole office applauding you for gaming the system and ‘sticking it to the man’ all whilst your manager looks on dispondantly from the background. It’s going to result in a lot of uncomfortable discussions with HR and you potentially losing your job, or at the very least be given a written warning. If that’s not a problem then great.
If your employee can go months doing nothing then you’re a shite boss who’s even worse than that employee, frankly
Sure, but that doesn’t mean that the employee is not culpable as well. They have a responsibility to inform their line manager that they have no work to do. If the manager still does nothing, then great, enjoy the free time. But they should at least try. Your company expects you to be working in exchange for payment. I’ve seen situations where someone taking money for work they were knowingly not doing was accused of fraud. Maybe that sticks in court, maybe it doesn’t, but is it worth the hassle to find out?
Do things that are never finished. Optimize the everloving bejeezus out of some code. Endlessly fiddle with webpage layouts. Explore and review all the ways not to reticulate a spline.
“I’ve been awaiting my next job”
Probably get fire but oh well, easy run until that point.
Nah, when you jam up the machine in an unexpected way, more likely than not they’re going to keep it quiet. A manager isn’t going to want to go to their boss with a problem no one noticed… It’s going to do nothing to benefit them and it’ll make their life harder
All you have to do is play dumb. Insubordination is one thing, waiting for orders is just having a job with little autonomy. If you maintain you were just a good little cog waiting to be reconnected to the machine, they’re better off sweeping it under the rug.
They might get upset instead, but what are they going to do? Sue you for not being more proactive? They’d probably lose more in legal fees than they could get back from most people
2022, pretty sure they are job hunting 2024
I’ve told this story a few times now, but I never get sick of it.
Back in 2011 I left a startup that got acquired. On my last day we had a Christmas Party with our parent company, and we got to speaking to one guy that was on his own. After a few drinks, he blurted out that he had worked there for maybe 12 years, but at least 5-6 of those he was “unassigned”. When we asked what that meant, he said that his manager left and he was never assigned to a new team. He badged in every day, and after doing maybe 6 months of busy work and asking “wtf am I doing” to no answer from his department or HR he just came in to do his own stuff or play Unreal Tournament. He had yearly reviews with the head of department, and these were just high-level goal meetings where they reviewed the department, asked what he wanted, and left at that. Each year he was getting between a 2-5% pay rise, and outside of badging in he was only ever judged on his department output.
I always wonder what happened to that guy. The company is quite large and is still going strong, so he’s probably still there. I won’t name them, but another thing I loved about them was that they didn’t really know where to put Software Engineers, so they just assigned them to Marketing and gave each engineer a marketing budget to personally use - around £10k each. The best part? Everyone in marketing knew it was bullshit, but they pushed everyone to spend it because otherwise their budget would go down. Some highlights were a trip to Toronto to buy some books, a full team trip to Amsterdam to go to a React conference and live in basically 5-star accommodation, and renting a hotel lobby to quickly burn some money on interviewing interns. I think they actually have a tech department now, but I know many people I worked with that stayed for close to a decade because the WLB and perks were just too good to ignore.
This is why downsizing isn’t always bad
Well… Let there be some fun in this world.
Apart from this … middle management is a real bloat nower days. Layers after layers of managers without contact to the actual product. (Now seen in Microsoft, Google and Enshittification)
Oh god, i only once worked in a company large enough where it felt like there were more middle managers than actual workers. The middle manger that was assigned to my team suddenly got sick. Like cancer sick and he basically stopped working within a week. They panicked, because there was no one to replace her. Some guy that i have never seen before told us that we just have to hang in there for 2 weeks or so until they found a replacement. They never found a replacement and i think they just forgot, because nothing has changed about our job, we did the same amount of work and everything. Legitimately the only difference was that they had one less paycheck to pay.
Imagine being so poorly managed that you downsize to cut back on unnecessary spending but literally lose track of an employee. Let’s keep the expense of an employee with none of the revenue generation!
I can honestly see that person surviving downsizing rounds.
No manager = nobody to name them on their “pick 10 employees to get rid of” lists.
Sometimes you just have to many people
Yes, concentrated in ineffectual Management. You think the workers are superfluous? lol.
Some are, for sure
“Managers” are just workers in the end.
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I’ve seen this happen with coworkers of mine. Folks who never did any work. And slipped under the radar for many years. at least two (and one other to a lesser extent) come to mind.
I have a coworker like that in a shared office. Guy fucking watches movies on speaker with the boss next door.
Who’s the real boss in this situation
Good point.
The one paying for it, of course.
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Happens when you’re not proud of what you’re contributing to. Probably most workers, tbh.
I was in a position like this once. The first two or three months were great. TBH, I mostly played video games and cleaned the house. It felt like free money. By the six month mark, I quit to go to something else. It’s surprising how mentally draining it is to just do nothing.
I think I took two things away from that experience: One, I think people generally have an innate need to produce something. We don’t want to just sit around and entertain ourselves, we want to contribute. Two, I think the 40 hour work week isn’t quite the right balance. Maybe 30 would be better.
Gah, a 4-day work week would be wonderful. I might actually work on my side projects.
Eh, I have kids, so I already have enough mental drain w/o my full-time job, so I think I’d end up catching up on things I’ve been putting off, like exercise, repairs around the house, etc.
In fact, I lost my job at the start of COVID and didn’t start looking for a few months because nobody was hiring. I got so much stuff done around the house, and I was able to essentially home-school my kids at the end of one school year and the beginning of the next. I really enjoyed that, and I would totally homeschool my kids if I didn’t need to work every day to pay the bills.
So yeah, I’d absolutely appreciate a 30-ish hour work week, especially if I got one whole day off instead of it being spread across 5-days.
In your case your productivity is spend around your house and kids and not on jobs, in OOP’s case they spend their time consume. I know i can take the latter but only for a day or two, but i’ll definitely shift to the former soon after.
Even if I didn’t have kids, I’d have plenty of things to do with my SO: hiking, traveling, cooking, etc. “Productivity” has a lot of forms, and many of them aren’t marketable at all, so I really don’t think I’d need to look for a job if I didn’t need the pay.
If you’re single and/or your friends/SO all still work, then yeah, I imagine you’d get pretty bored after a month or so. But if you already have a lot of fulfilling things you’d like to do but don’t have time for, I think not working could work out pretty well.
My brother didn’t get married until about 40yo and had a fantastic job (made it to VP level as an actuary), so he made way more than he could spend. He ended up being able to retire around the time he got married, and he inherited 3 kids (she’s a widow). He’s been retired for several years now and still finds plenty of things to keep himself occupied. He could totally work if he wanted, there’s just other things taking his time.
Everyone is different. For some people, work is the most fulfilling thing, which is why we’ll see many very wealthy people working into their 70s (or 90s for Warren Buffett). For others, relationships are more important, so they quit as soon as they have enough. And for others, various hobbies fill that spot. So it really depends on what gives your life meaning.
For me, it’s my SO and kids, followed by FOSS. So if I didn’t have to work, I’d spend more time on those, not look for another job.
One, I think
people generallyI have an innate need to produce something.WeI don’t want to just sit around and entertainourselvesmyself,weI want to contribute. Two, I think the 40 hour work week isn’t quite the right balance for me. Maybe 30 would be better for me.It’s good to learn from experiences, but it’s not good to assume that your experience is everyone’s experience.
Yeah same here.
I’m in a similar situation at the moment where my team is pretty unorganized, most employees are from an external company, and noone bothers to explain shit to me, even after I asked several times already. Plus, because of unenforced rules, it’s basically 100% home office and noone is ever present, even if I go in the office. I COULD just do nothing and pretend like I’m working all of the time, noone ever contacts me anyway. But that would genuinely make me wanna die.
I’m already feeling super useless most of the time and try to chew through old legacy code to at least gain an understanding of the project. It’s somewhat working, but it’s tough to keep up my motivation. Overall I kinda oscillate between feeling useless and frustrated because I’m just not as productive as I would want to be as an employee.
Anyway, I’m already sending out CVs to other job offers. This is not the ideal life for me and I don’t plan on keeping it going for longer than necessary.
Some people don’t dream of, or need, labor. I know I don’t. I have enough hobbies to keep me entertained forever.
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yeah I am the same as you. I can’t respect anyone who slacks that hard
Long ago I worked at Wal-mart’s tire center while going to college and to get as many hours as I could they let me work with the overnight people after we closed at 7. In theory. The problem was the overnight managers never got told about this so I would just hang out doing nothing for 3 hours every night and getting paid. This went on for 3 months until I got a better job and no one ever questioned me about it.
Don’t you still feel bad about defrauding Walmart for 180 hours worth of pay?
Cause I don’t.I do not.
If I did this I would immediately try to get a second job with the extra time and save like crazy.
What would you say, you do here?
2022
So, how did it go?
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Or find a new job so you can save the entire salary, and then send in your 2-weeks just before yearly reviews. That way you can get ahead so you have less stress when you inevitably get cut off.
Nah don’t send in your two weeks, have them fire you and then claim unemployment, or get a severance.
Getting terminated would suck, but not if you already have a job and don’t need the reference.
Nah, if they notice you’ve been scamming them for months and end up firing you, they’ll fight the unemployment and could sue you. If you quit before they notice, they may never end up looking into it and you’ll get away with it scot free.
Don’t worry Anon, I’m sure it’ll work out.
wastes his time watching movies all day.
Really?? Smh
World doesn’t have to be just hustle and grind. The man can enjoy himself however he likes, especially if he’s getting paid too.
Take the opportunity to acquire skills for the inevitable firing that’s coming later.
There was a story like that on Tales From Tech Support (buddy automated all his work while not making himself essential to support the automation) and when the guy got caught and had to find another job, it had been so long since he had actually worked that he had forgotten all about programming.
Right? Like at lease pick up some hobbies or something. I can’t imagine having all that free time and just sitting there letting my brain and body fester.
Or just get a second job and wait for the first one’s paychecks to stop rolling in.
There might be an issue with some contract clause about the company you work for owning anything you create while at work so if you’re working two jobs at once it can create quite a mess
Eh, they can’t touch anything that’s not on their equipment, and they would have to prove that you did it while on their clock. It could be that you took your “breaks” from that job (legally allowed) to get all the work done for the other company, and you are just really productive in those 15-min breaks or whatever (or you pre-work outside of work hours and submit your work in those “break” periods). If it’s not on their hardware, they’d have a rough time proving it.
Depending on the state you’re in you can get sued for all that money back, best to CYA
